Episode 46: Storm Damage

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Thank you for joining us on another episode
of In the Woods.

I'm Lauren Grand, Oregon State University
Extension Forester and Associate Professor

of Practice and I'll be your host for today's
episode.

So today's episode is all about how storms
damage trees and what that means for our rural

and urban forests.

So in this episode we hope to accomplish a
basic understanding of why trees are damaged

in these types of storms and to give you some
tips and tricks for mitigating the damage.

As well as cleaning up and restoring the area
if you need to.

And to help us accomplish this today, I brought
two guests to the podcast.

So if you can help me welcome them.

Um, our first guest is Glenn Ahrens.

Glenn is the OSU Extension Forestry and Natural
Resources agent that serves Clackamas and

Hood River counties.

I'm really lucky to know Glenn as a colleague
and have had the opportunity to work with

him on lots of projects.

He's a very knowledgeable guy.

So thanks for joining us, Glenn.

Yeah, it's my pleasure.

Thanks.

Hi, everyone.

And then, um, so Glenn, why don't you tell
us a little bit about yourself and how you

got into your role in forestry?

Okay, well, I started out more kind of on
the research side of forest ecology and management.

And when I came to OSU, for a master's program,
I worked with some extension professors on

campus and working with the extension specialist
there, uh, it helped me realize that I really

wanted to put research to work, um, on the
ground, put our research based knowledge to

work and help people on the ground.

So I got a job as extension forester I was
lucky to get that back in 2001.

So I started as a, you know, a county extension
agent in the old terminology there on the

north coast.

And then I moved over to Clackamas and covering
Clackamas, uh, Marion and Hood River counties,

uh, in 2012.

So that's what I've been doing, uh, for over
20 years.

Well, great to have you, Glenn.

Thank you.

And our other guest today is Scott Altenhoff.

Scott is the program manager for urban and
community forestry assistance for the Oregon

Department of Forestry.

And I had the pleasure of meeting Scott when
I first started at Oregon State when he was

an urban forester in the city of Eugene.

And I've had an amazing opportunity learning
more and more about urban forestry from Scott's

expertise.

So glad to be able to partner with you again
in your new role, Scott, um, as a, in a statewide

position.

Uh, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Lauren.

Great to be here.

And, uh, yeah, looking forward to taking part
in this conversation.

So Scott, uh, before we get started, why don't
you tell us a little bit more about yourself

and how you got into urban forestry?

You bet.

It's been a long and circuitous route.

Um, I first started my forestry or, uh, community,
urban and community forestry career picking

cones.

I, I got a job picking various types of conifer
cones for reforestation and just fell in love

with, uh, the tree biology and ecology and
working on something so tangible.

It was clear that there were such real results
to the work I was doing and then started,

uh, branched out as it were into, uh, on the
ground surveys.

So stand exams and at the time they were called
current vegetation surveys and now they're

called IFA, uh, FIA, forest inventory and
analysis.

So, uh, a lot of wildlife surveys and vegetation
surveys, and then, uh, made my way into commercial

arboriculture, caring for trees, uh, in a,
an urban setting.

And then from there moved into urban forestry
with a municipal urban forestry and that's

how we of course first got to know one another.

And for the last two years I've been here
working for the state of Oregon as a, an urban

and community forester.

Okay, great.

Thanks, Scott.

So obviously another really well experienced
participant.

Um, and I'm lucky to have the two of you on
the podcast to interview.

So thank you.

So I guess to the task at hand, uh, this January,
we had a pretty substantial ice storm in the

Willamette Valley and that caused some pretty
significant damage, but this is only the most

recent of events that we've had.

Weather events with heavy snow, ice, rain,
and wind, um, around the state have the potential

to really cause a lot of damage to our local
forests, both in and out of town.

So, um, I'm hoping that we can sort of shape
our conversation a little bit about what happens

during these events and what that means for
our both urban and more rural forests.

But, so, these events in forestry, we tend
to call them Disturbances.

So, Glenn, can you tell me a little bit or
can you share with us, uh, quickly what role

disturbance plays in forest ecosystems?

Yeah.

So, you know, we look at disturbance as, you
know, anything that really opens up the canopy

or disturbs the vegetation in the soil and
kind of makes room for new trees and plants

to get started.

Uh, so disturbance is a major driver of forest
regeneration in particular and ecosystem change

and, you know, wildfire is by far the most
common and important disturbance in our Northwest

forest.

It opens up growing space for regeneration
of trees like Douglas fir and other species,

particularly ones that need a lot of sunlight.

But, of course, the storms, like the wind
and ice storm that we had recently, you know,

is another major disturbance that, you know,
will kill or damage trees and also open up,

you know, growing space and allow for new
plants to get started.

Other disturbances, like, you know, floods
or landslides or an insect and disease outbreak.

You know, there's other things that again,
you know, kill some trees or damaged trees

and kind of make room for new things to get
going.

So that's, you know, that's the role of disturbance.

It's the major driver in our forest ecosystems
here, particularly in the West and the Northwest.

Yeah, thanks, Glenn.

And I think if we think about sort of on a
landscape scale, some of these disturbances

can be quite small, or just relationally to
the Pacific Northwest, don't seem to make

that much of an impact to our, to our forests,
but, except for locally, but in these sort

of wide scale circumstances, they can really
change, create, it sounds like they can really

can create a significant change in the forest
vegetation and potentially forest health.

Yeah, that's right.

You know, and of course, you know, the first
impact on forest health, if you will, is one

tree at a time, you know, which Scott will
probably talk about.

But, um, the tree mortality, the damage caused
by the storm to each tree or to the groups

of trees, you know, is obviously a big impact
on the health of those trees.

But another thing to think about the impact
of having all these damaged trees or trees

that fall down and parts of trees is you end
up with a lot of debris on the ground, woody

debris.

And then that really feeds a lot of insects,
you know, that they feed and they breed and

a lot of this fresh debris and may build up
populations in these damaged trees and wood

on the ground.

They also could attack the damaged trees that
are weakened by losing parts of their crown.

And I should note when we use the term crown,
we're talking about all the living green foliage

of a tree, the whole package that drives the
photosynthetic machinery.

So that's the crown of a tree.

And when trees lose a major part of their
crown and then across the whole forest, a

lot of crowns are damaged.

Those those can be weakened trees are vulnerable
to attack by insects.

So that's one of the forest health consequences
of major storms and damage events that may

breed a lot of insects in the debris, which
can then lead to a local outbreak that might

then affect otherwise healthy trees in the
same area.

You know, another impact, of course, is that
a lot of the debris from storm damage, uh,

is going to increase fire hazard, and if that
goes across a large area, you know, we may

have a few seasons of much higher fire hazard
with all that fuel drying out on the ground,

uh, you know, if we're not able to clean that
up.

So that's just a little bit of the, you know,
the aspect of these disturbances on forest

health.

Yeah, thanks, Glenn.

And thanks for mentioning the, the fact that,
you know, forest health starts on the individual

tree level.

So we'll toss it to you, Scott, then, um,
can you drill down the view a little bit then

to that single tree and, um, share with us
how these weather events tend to affect individual

tree species as opposed to forests of trees?

You bet, happy to do so.

So, uh, historically, those of us who have
been in the Pacific Northwest for several

decades, I think we'd be inclined to say that
Ice storms of this sort of severity have historically

been quite rare.

One of our biggest landscape scale disturbances
that really impacted the forests and urban

forests in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
was the Columbus Day storm of 1962.

That was a windstorm that really was catastrophic.

In my tenure, about three decades as an urban
forester, we've had decadal windstorms once

a once every 10 years or so of consequence,
but not many ice storms until the past 10

years.

They seem to be coming more severe and more
frequent.

So my prescriptions for individual trees in
terms of pruning and, uh, preparing them to

withstand storm forces has changed quite a
bit over the last decade.

Uh, some of the impacts that ice storms in
particular can have, looking at a tree scale,

um, trees in our area can withstand, oh, maybe
a quarter inch of wet or heavy ice or frozen

precipitation.

But once it reaches a critical point, you'll
start to see a significant limb failure, starting

with large overgrown scaffold limbs and such,
or failures at weak attachment points where

you have maybe what we call a bark inclusion,
uh, in between stems.

So rather than having solid wood attaching
to, uh, co dominant leads, you, you have a

bunch of bark and a, uh, poorly attached spot,
or if you have decay pockets in limbs or trunks.

So as the ice or snow gets thicker, you start
seeing not just branch breakage, but potentially

entire tree failure, main stems failing, as
well as whole trees failing.

And that can be exacerbated if we have saturated
soils, that is, soils that have been wetted

and have lost their holding strength.

Many times when a whole tree will blow over
or fall over as a result of snow or ice, it's

not the tree's roots that failed necessarily,
but often times it's the tree's ability the

soil holding ability.

So as any gardener can probably relate in
the early spring when there's still a bunch

of soil moisture, you can pull a weed pretty
easily.

Once the summer weather hits and the soils
dry out, it becomes a lot more challenging

to pull a weed out.

And the same applies for a tree.

If the soils are wetted or really saturated,
it's fairly easy to to get that root system

to give.

But once the soils are dry and hard, the holding
strength is far greater.

So yeah, at a whole tree level, branch failure
is typical in an ice storm, uh, but you can

see entire tree failure, the stem at weak
points or poor attachment points.

And those weak points can result from previous
injuries or decay or defects in the stem.

So that's something that is easy to detect
beforehand.

And as an arborist and urban forester, that's
something that we always advise folks to pay

attention to.

There's a lot of prevention that can be undertaken,
uh, preventative maintenance or, uh, planning

that can, can prevent catastrophic, uh, damage.

Okay, thanks, Scott.

I really liked that example, the gardening
example.

I understand the concept, you know, of saturated
soils and trees falling over, but to relate

it back to that gardening example was, was
really great and sort of made my brain click

a little bit there.

So thanks for that.

Um, okay, so, and there, it sounds like there
are preventative measures that you can take

depending on the type of tree.

But before we get there, can you share with
us if there are certain types of trees that

can withstand these events better than others
or are less likely to have points of failure,

as you've mentioned?

You bet.

The, um, my view of this has shifted significantly
over the last 10 years.

I used to think that our oaks and our hardwoods
that were known for their hard, dense wood

were just generally stronger and more storm
resistant than, say, a soft wooded tree like

a cottonwood or even some of our conifers.

But these recent ice storms over the last
decade have made me realize that sometimes

having that inherent flexibility, the wood
might not be quite so strong.

However, if it can give, it can often withstand
an ice storm better than a tree that does

not budge.

It holds strong, holds strong, holds strong,
and then fails entirely.

So, in, uh, the recent ice storms, from my
experience, some of our native oaks, like

our California black oaks and our Oregon white
oaks and even some of the non native oaks

like red oaks or in oaks suffered really significant
damage while simultaneously trees that are

typically thought to be weaker, wooded, like
cottonwood or even some of our maples.

They, and some of our conifers, they weathered
the storms just fine.

And I'm always amazed at giant sequoia.

It's very rare to see branch failures on giant
sequoia, but yet there, their wood has historically

been known to be much weaker and not suitable
for structural purposes for for lumber than

many other species of conifer, but, um, those
quote unquote stronger species like Doug fir,

like ponderosa pine and spruce even I've seen
a lot more ice damage.

So I think it's fair to say I'm still learning,
but each tree has its own strategy as it were

evolutionary strategy that can serve it well,
under certain circumstances, maybe, uh, fares

well with winds and high rains, but doesn't
fare well with frozen rain or heavy snow.

So I think the short answer is there are differences
among species, and it depends on the nature

of the disturbance, uh, really, and the context,
uh, in which the tree is growing.

Hopefully that's not too vague.

I was just gonna say, no simple answer for
us, huh, Scott?

No, unfortunately not.

Well, I just, that's okay.

I feel like that's the, um, the way the cookie
crumbles, if you will, uh, for, ecology in

general so.

It all depends.

Go ahead.

Or the tree crumbles, as it were.

And what I can say definitively and provide
some clarity is that regardless of the species

or the characteristics of the particular characteristics
of the tree in question.

There are many pruning practices or preventative
measures that can be undertaken to help increase

resilience under storm forces.

So judicious pruning that can bring in gangly
or overgrown limbs, reducing tip weight and

reducing the overall branch or trees, height
to diameter ratio.

So not doing too much, uh, 'cause that can
predispose it to problems as well.

But, um, having, uh, making strategic cuts
weight reduction so that if it does get a

bit more frozen precipitation weight, the,
the limb is well suited to handle it.

Okay, so at least there are ways to, as you
mentioned earlier, prevent, um, potentially

some of the amount of weight that will be
on each of these branches.

That's correct.

Okay, let's take a, let's zoom out again,
um, and talk to Glenn.

So what about thinking about this more in
a forest context in terms of maybe we're not

looking at the individual tree being affected
by the ice damage because in the forest we're

thinking more of a community of trees.

Um, are there maybe certain stages of forest
development or forest types in which we're

there, we're seeing there are more tree vulnerabilities.

Yeah, in the forest, we are looking at, you
know, larger areas and larger groups of trees,

and we often refer to that as, you know, a
grove of trees or a forester looks at a stand

of trees that kind of are all in a somewhat
similar condition or came up together across

acres of land.

And the way that the trees grow up together
over time and the spacing between the trees,

you know, the amount of crowding and competition
among the trees really has a big influence

on, you know, the way that the stand and the
way individual trees in the stand are going

to weather stresses and strains of storm events,
you know, so it really has a big influence

in terms of the tree characteristics and how
vulnerable they might be to breakage or, uh,

tipping over and key part of that is that
trees that are overcrowded, uh, which often

is the case, you know, a group of trees come
up together after something, you know, regenerates

a patch of trees like the last windstorm or
fire, but if they grow up and they get pretty

crowded, then you could end up in a condition
where a lot of the trees are kind of tall

and spindly because they're, you know, competing
with other trees and they develop fairly small

crowns again, the kind of thin, um, stems
and also their root systems are smaller and

less well developed because of the, you know,
the small crown that they have and the competition.

So those are often more vulnerable to losing
their top.

And then when they lose their top, the whole
crown is gone because they just don't have

very much.

And they also can be vulnerable to tipping
over because they have weaker root systems

or smaller root systems.

So, you know, high winds or heavy ice can
take down a lot of trees at a time.

In fact, whole swaths of trees, if they're
all kind of in this vulnerable condition.

And that often happens, you know, during certain
stages of development, like as the forest

grows up and things are fairly crowded, you
know, starting maybe 15 to, 30 years old,

that can be a vulnerable phase before, you
know, trees kind of sort themselves out into

some of the winners and losers.

And the winners tend to be bigger, stronger
trees, you know, that might withstand the

storms.

So trees that do have more growing space and
a bigger crown, they'll have stronger stems,

stronger root systems.

They'll be, stouter and stronger stems and
branches.

And they may lose their tops or they may lose
branches.

You may have noticed in some of the ice storms
that, you know, some large strong doug firs

lost branches, but they retain enough of their
crown that they're going to survive and recover,

whereas again, those smaller, you know, weaker
trees may just fail completely or lose their

crowns.

Now, another aspect of stage of development
is, of course, trees are growing taller over

time and taller trees are more exposed to
wind.

Um, they're going to have more force of the
wind on that larger length of stem and crown,

which then puts more leverage at ground level.

So just by virtue of height, when trees get
up over 100 ft tall, you know, they're gonna

be, uh, suffering a lot more force from wind
and therefore have to be even stronger to

withstand that.

That's so interesting that you both sort of
brought up this concept of height to width

ratio almost, that even in forest systems
where, even in forest systems where trees

are maybe competing with each other for light
and so they're growing taller and they're

putting less resources into diameter growth,
you know, wind is, um, really affecting potentially

their health, that that's also an important
ratio individually for trees.

That's a, that's an interesting concept.

I didn't quite think about that, you know,
trees standing together or individually would

really be affected in a strength ability,
uh, from snapping or blowing over from this

height with ratio.

Yeah, yeah, I think of it in terms of we often
even talk about a height to diameter ratio,

which gets to be kind of a technical thing,
but you take the height of a tree in the same

units and you divide it by the diameter of
the tree and when those ratios get up over

100 to 120, you know, that's an indication
of a tree that may be weak or unstable.

And we like to have the ratios more like in
the 60 to 80 range for a really stout, strong

tree.

All right.

Great.

Thanks.

Well, Glenn, I was thinking about it earlier
and I can always count on a seasoned extension

agent to define terms.

And so you've been doing really well with
that.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Um, okay.

So you talked a little bit about the stages
of development and then also some of the things

that in forests that might cause trees to
be more vulnerable.

Are there management activities that foresters,
um, would might take on to help mitigate effects

of these storms.

Yeah, when we're looking at stands or groups
of trees and talked about, you know, the crowding,

the growing space, you know, the, the most
basic thing we do is control you know, the

spacing, uh, and make sure the trees don't
get overcrowded if we have the capacity to

manage it that carefully.

So, you know, the main thing we do to improve
the stability and resilience of trees in the

forest is that we manage that spacing to give
each tree more growing space and they'll develop

a better crown, which then promotes stronger
stems and root systems.

Um, so you can start by planting, you know,
if you're starting with a site that's recovering

from a clearing or disturbance, um, or just
a new planting area, you know, start out by,

spacing the trees out, you know, some designed
amount and that really depends on, you know,

what your overall goals are and how often
you're going to be able to come back and and

thin for, for instance, but whatever you start
at, it works for a while and then trees are

going to tend to get overcrowded and so then
thinning is the next thing we can do to intervene

and remove some trees to leave more space
so that the remaining trees can grow stronger

and have good crowns.

During thinning, we often would, you know,
take out weaker trees, some of the trees that

have forks, some of those individual tree
characteristics that Scott was talking about

that may make a tree prone, you know, to weakness
in a forestry context, we would be looking

at just perhaps removing those trees instead
of pruning them or trying to help them because

there's plenty of other trees that we want
to leave for the future that would take up

the space.

So then we leave the better trees to develop
more stable forest conditions over time.

And a key concept here is that as the trees
are growing larger, they're gonna need more

growing space.

And so if you start out with a couple 100
trees in an area and they're doing fine and

not overcrowded, it's just a matter of time
before they start to crowd each other.

And then it's a question of whether we thin
them out.

Or whether nature thins them out or they start
just killing each other through competition

and you have kind of winners and losers emerge
and you know, some of the subtleties of this

is a lot of times by accident.

There's a lot of differences between trees,
even though they're growing up together and

the forest will sort itself out and maybe
doesn't really need that much thinning.

But in other cases, they're all growing together
and equally and kind of equally overcrowded,

and in which case thinning could be really
important, you know, to prevent the trees

from becoming weak or the forest as a whole
of being vulnerable to, you know, more wind

and storm damage.

Okay.

So on the forest scale, it seems like the
story is based on density and an ability of

a single tree to be able to access resources
in competition with the other trees that are

in the forest.

Yep.

That's often how it goes, especially here
in the West where trees tend to be coming

up together after a major disturbance.

And then they're, they're kind of competing
with each other, kind of at the same age range,

other kinds of forests, like some of our coastal
rainforests or, you know, in tropical forests

where there's just a lot more mixes of tree
ages and sizes and species, it's a little

bit different story, although individually,
one tree at a time, you can still apply those

same, you know, attributes to look at what's
a strong tree and what's a weak tree.

But here we, in the West, we have large patches
that come up at the same time, and sometimes

they can develop into a large area of vulnerable
trees as it happens if they're overcrowded.

Great.

Thanks, Glenn.

Okay.

So Scott, let's turn it back over to you and
think about the, our urban or street trees

or more on an individual tree basis.

Since in the forest, we are considering individual
trees as they interact with each other, but

that might not be the whole story for urban
trees, and it sounds like pruning is one management

activity that you mentioned to help mitigate
these effects.

Are there others that landowners can do?

You bet.

So yeah, it's great that we're differentiating
what I like to refer as intensively managed

trees.

So those are trees in urban areas that we
have the means and are actually need to manage

tree by tree.

And then we have extensively managed areas,
natural stands and forest areas that it would

neither be feasible nor desirable to manage
tree by tree and try and manage at the stand

level.

So in terms of intensively managed areas in,
oh, those could be street trees, park trees,

residential property trees, where, um, there
are hazard implications if a tree were to

fail in a forest.

Not a big deal, but if a sizable tree were
to fail in an urban setting or suburban setting,

the impacts could be catastrophic.

So more proactive management or intensive
management is required.

And so in addition to pruning, which is typically
the most cost effective way to prevent storm

damage, I'll take a step back.

It's also one of the key best ways to prevent
storm damage is through good planning.

And that is that can entail species selection,
um, that can involve citing.

So making sure that the the soil conditions
are ideal so that you grow well formed, uh,

healthy trees as opposed to trees that are
just struggling along growing up.

Um, and in, even in an intensively managed
scenario, the same forest principles apply.

If a tree is not getting light, full light
exposure on all sides, it may be induced to,

to reach for the sky and exceed its, uh, height
to diameter ratio along the lines of what

Glenn described.

So, just making sure that, um, conditions
are such.

And we know that trees can actually develop,
increase their strength when they are subject

to minor wind forces or movement.

So if a tree never experiences, uh, wind forces
or movement, it say it's in a sheltered area

behind a building or, uh, maybe a hillside
and it's not tested by prevailing winds.

And then suddenly a rare freak wind comes
from a, uh, a previously unknown direction

that can be catastrophic.

So just trying to, uh, create conditions that
the tree has a chance to reinforce itself.

So especially when the tree is quite small,
it's important not to create, many people

will keep a tree staked for way too long.

Ideally, when planting new trees, it's good
to stake them for the first year or so, but

a best practice is to remove those stakes
as quickly as possible so that the tree is

induced to reinforce itself, to develop that
important trunk taper that helps it remain

strong.

If the tree is never called to reinforce itself
because it's staked or, or, um, sheltered,

uh, that can lead to problems down the line.

So good planning, that is always the most
cost effective way, preventing problems rather

than trying to cure them.

And then as mentioned, pruning is a very important
way to prevent problems.

And then if upon inspection, uh, having conducting
regular inspections is a very cost effective

approach to preventing problems.

And if problems are identified, you can, uh,
in some cases, cable a tree, provide, uh,

supplemental support systems that allow the
tree to reinforce itself.

A dynamic cabling scenario, for instance.

That is, it doesn't come into play, say you've
got a forked tree and the tree is perceiving

wind forces, it's being induced to reinforce
itself.

But if a really heavy wind comes, the, cable
will become taught and it will be, uh, catch

it from catastrophic prevented from experiencing
catastrophic failure.

So inspection, regular inspections.

Oh, maybe by every two years would be a great
intervention and preventative measure.

And then, uh, in some cases, installing support
systems and that those could be cables or

braces or even props, uh, in, in certain cases,
and then making sure that the tree's root

system or the, the critical root zone, as
we like to refer to the area surrounding the

tree's trunk, making sure that conditions
are ideal to keep tree vitality high because

a tree that is healthy and, uh, doing its
thing will be stronger, inherently stronger

than a tree that is just limping along and,
and barely eking out its existence.

Okay, so speaking of a tree limping along,
those were great examples of how one might

be able to prevent damage or deal with some
potential damage.

Let's say that some, you know, the ice storm
has come through and now there has been damage.

Are there ways to assess how healthy the trees
are afterwards?

And If they're able to bounce back from this
event, or if, you know, the tree is too far

gone?

Yeah, there sure are ways to assess whether
a tree is worth retaining and capable of being

retained and regenerating or regrowing and
responding to that damage, or in some cases,

if it's wiser to remove it, that will once
again, vary species to species and site by

site, but qualified tree risk assessor, uh,
will be able to, uh, put all those pieces

together and in 99 percent of situations be
able to make a prescription for treatment

that will, um, help facilitate long term survival
and, and response.

Uh, what you don't want to do is leave, uh,
a known problem in place and that those known

problems resulting from ice storms could be
a widow maker limbs, those limb broken limbs

that are detached or poorly attached and that
could fall if, if a wind kicks up or if another

snow event occurs.

So making sure to remove those broken limbs
in some cases, making a cut back to the main

trunk of the tree might be best, but in many
cases, uh, figuring out just the bare minimum

amount of removal that's required, uh, that
would allow the tree to regenerate, um.

And there are many trees that may look terrible
shortly after a catastrophic ice storm, but

that can actually regrow its substantial portions
of its lost crown and, uh, recover.

Um, in the 2016 ice storm that hit the Eugene
Springfield area, there were trees that I

wondered whether they would be good candidates
for retention.

Uh, they looked terrible and it took a good
five to six years for them to regrow.

But, uh, by and large, many of those, most
of those trees have regenerated and might

require some supplemental pruning just to
thin some, uh, heavy epicormic sprouts or,

uh, thick sprouting that could predispose
them to problems.

But yeah, um, there's a lot of work that can
be done to assess the tree, do some, um, response

pruning and many of those trees are just fine
years afterwards.

And in some cases, after a decade or more,
you may not even be able to tell that there

was preexisting damage.

And I think it was, um, I think it was you
who said to me once that trees didn't need

pruning before humans, right?

The, well, need pruning is maybe not the right
term, but trees weren't pruned before humans,

that this is their response to various climatic
events.

And, you know, they ecologically and, um,
evolutionarily needed to be able to figure

out a way to rebound from them.

Yeah, that's, uh, so true.

And if it weren't for the risk issue, there
may not be a need to prune, but in urbanized

or, uh, heavily populated areas where there
is, uh, risk potential, we, we want to be,

um, proactive.

It's just not worth having someone be injured
or suffering significant property damage,

or in the worst case scenario, having some,
uh, having a fatality.

And that, that leads me to, it's very easy
after a severe ice storm like this for there

to be, uh, an overreaction for folks to unnecessarily
remove trees because of perceived risk or

just general risk aversion.

It's understandable.

But what we have to remember is the benefits
of trees in urban areas are so many, um, that

we want to be careful not to throw the baby
out with a bathwater to remember the trees

provide essential benefits and the wise thing
to do is remove or reduce the costs and liabilities

associated with trees, but to retain and maximize
tree benefits.

So just a good reminder.

Yeah, thanks.

And speaking of benefits, maybe taking this
question on a little bit of a, a hike, but

are there benefits to the damage, you know,
can trees being damaged in a storm cause some

sort of ecological benefit outside of the
obvious, you know, risk to people or property?

That's a great question.

And it's also important to remember that our
landscapes are really disturbance, uh, they

depend on disturbance for many of the ecological
processes.

So habitat potential is definitely enhanced
in stands, forest stands where there's branch

breakage.

That's, uh, in heavily disturbed stands, that's
where we see some of the greatest habitat

potential for, uh, Avian species and, uh,
for, uh, mammals of all sorts and for, uh,

invertebrates and, and things like that.

So thank you for asking that question, thinking
about the big picture.

Forests are so much more than just trees and
urban forests are so much than just trees.

There is a whole web of life that depends
on trees and arboreal structures and habitats.

So yes, trees have evolved to withstand storm
forces and then respond and various organisms

depend upon that morphology or that that form
of the tree branch, epicormic sprouting or,

or uh, thick sprouting that comes secondarily,
uh, so as opposed to the, the primary branch

structure and avian habitat.

So, uh, species of bird that, uh, are dependent
that need to excavate their holes.

So woodpeckers and, uh, sap suckers and flickers
and, uh, actually dozens of species need dead

or dying wood to, uh, make a, uh, a livelihood,
uh, getting insects and creating, uh, nesting

sites and then, uh, many other species as
well.

So it is important to take a philosophical
view that although in modern life we don't

like uncertainty or quote unquote defects,
those defects that result from storm forces

are actually highly beneficial in the, in
the broader scheme of things.

Yeah, thanks for that.

And, um, thanks for the reference to, uh,
the dying wood and dead wood.

Um, our wildlife biologist friends will probably
get excited to hear that.

Especially, we had a whole episode on it,
on dead wood, on the podcast.

So, if that sort of stuff excites you, go
back and check check that episode.

I'm all about saproxylic habitat.

Love it.

Um, Glenn, you've been quiet for a while.

Um, can you, I know that, you know, wildlife
is probably a, a major benefit as well in

the forested system.

Do you want to talk a little bit more about
that within our rural forest, landscape forests,

or in many, any others that you know of?

Yeah, sure.

In terms of, you know, what we're just talking
about, you know, when you look at damaged

trees in a forest setting, you know, there's
not so much of an urgent need to clean it

all up necessarily.

Well, I guess we'll talk about that a bit
in terms of, um, you know, cleaning up debris,

but, uh, that value for wildlife is something
that you have even more opportunities in the

forest to leave damaged or dead trees in terms
of like the forest canopy, the tree that gets

damaged or set back is often going to just
be, um, fall behind anyway.

And so the, the trees that are not damaged
in the area are going to take over and thrive.

Uh, but that damage tree then might become,
you know, good, good habitat, either as a

standing dead snag or a tree that has damage
that becomes, then, you know, more suitable

for wildlife habitat.

So in the forest, there's a lot of opportunities.

And in fact, often a primary goal to, you
know, leave some of those trees or even create

dead or damaged trees where there aren't any
because of their value for wildlife habitat,

the insects that feed on the dead wood, the
birds, bats and small mammals that feed on

the insects.

And then, you know, amphibians also, in moist
wood, rotting wood.

So, uh, you know, we can often afford to leave
those in the forest where there's not such

a concern about risk and hazards to, you know,
to life and property.

Um, yes.

Thank you, uh, Glenn.

That's a great way to think about how to look
at it and make space for all of our critters.

You alluded to this a little bit in your answer,
though.

You were talking about cleaning things up,
um, and thinking about, um, how to you know

how we might clean up after damage or after
one of these storms.

Um, can you talk a little bit about how you
might think about cleaning up after storm

damage, um, while still finding ways to, you
know, take advantage of those benefits you

were talking about?

Yes, uh, you know, it's kind of a balancing
act because, uh, you know, storms do make

a big mess and in the forest, you know, we
don't necessarily need to clean it all up

the way we like to do or need to do in developed
areas, but then, you know, too much woody

debris referred earlier to, you know, tuning
into hazards for insects that breed in fresh

down wood that might become, you know, a forest
health threat, you know, that varies by species.

So you kind of have to get an expert perhaps
or learn yourself, you know pines and firs

and versus hardwoods.

They all have different, you know, kinds of
insects and different hazards depending on

the species of tree, but balancing out, you
know, the excess debris that might be a health

hazard.

Also, then really concerned about fire hazards.

Um, but on the other hand, you know, if there's
a large, you know, scattered larger trees

that we can leave as snags or trees that have
fallen that we leave us as down wood.

Uh, there's a certain amount that, you know,
is safe to leave and it's not a big fire hazard,

especially some of the, the bigger pieces,
you know, that hold a lot of moisture.

And so we can leave those for those wildlife
benefits that we were talking about.

So it does become this kind of a balancing
act because a lot of the finer debris, uh,

you know, things less than, you know, 3 to
5 inches in diameter.

That can be a huge fire hazard also an obstacle
to getting around, and we often want to clean

that up.

And how do we do that?

Well, there's a lot of different options,
depending on your, you know, your tools and

the capacity you have to do the work or the
funding to pay others to do the work and the

scale of it, you know, acres and acres is
a big job making lots of firewood.

We can pile and burn debris.

We can also do control burning and make charcoal
and biochar, which is kind of an up and coming

alternative to just complete, you know, removal
or consumption and burn piles.

We have, you know, tractors and machinery
and even masticators that just shred a lot

of that material and spread it out, um, in
the forest.

We can cut things into smaller pieces and
get them in contact with the ground.

So they'll go back to the earth faster and
not be such a fire hazard.

And there's also some strategic, you know,
piling of smaller logs, even to make, you

know, a linear pile that acts more like a
larger log that concentrates the field.

So it's not a widespread fire hazard, but
also then provides wildlife habitat and sort

of a, you know, a concentrated habitat pile,
if you will.

So there's, there's quite a few options to
consider there, but it is kind of a balancing

act for how much you allow to go back for
habitat and for soil, organic matter, et cetera,

versus, you know, cleaning up the mess and
reducing the fire hazards.

Well, that's what makes it fun, right?

It's coming up with these different ecological
puzzles and trying to figure out how to how

to make that balancing act work.

Yep.

There's more than one right answer.

Right, yeah.

Okay, great.

So, uh, I'll, I'll toss it back over to you,
Scott.

So we've talked a little bit, you know, about,
you know, the damage and, um, some mitigation

things, but, you know, we have a lot of people
that were quite affected by this ice storm

in a lot of urban centers, um, in the Willamette
Valley.

And so it would be great if you could maybe
share with us some tips for cleaning up a

home landscape, options for, you know, I think
disposing of material is probably a lot more

difficult in an urban setting versus, you
know, say, a, um, you know, forested setting.

And then maybe if there were any ways that
people could use the wood as opposed to getting

rid of it, if there were landscape uses to
that.

You bet.

Uh, so I think it's fair to say in a developed
area in, in cities and towns, the most common

method of disposal of brush and small diameter
pieces of wood is to chip it or cart it off

to either using the municipal green waste
bin or carting it off in a truck to a local

wood recycler.

I'm really glad that Glenn mentioned biochar.

I think from a ecological and sustainability
standpoint, that is going to be an important

technology.

It's an ancient technology.

It's a fancy word for charcoal.

Um, it, but it has known soil improvement
characteristics.

So, uh, when you, as opposed to chipping up
branch material or storm debris and having

it go into small pieces that quickly decompose
and re volatize as atmospheric CO2.

Biochar persists as a sequestered carbon and
it has amazing properties for improving soils

and one of the greatest threats to trees we
have in urban areas is soil degradation, and

that degradation can come about as a result
of extended or ecological drought or compaction

activities that could occur from vehicle traffic
or construction activities or even foot traffic.

So anytime you can improve soils, make them
more resilient and more, uh, able to promote

quality root growth.

And the two basic properties for promoting
good tree root growth are good drainage.

You don't want soil or water to perch in the
soil and, and keep it saturated.

You want it to drain, but at the same time,
you want the soil to have lots of air spaces

and resist compaction.

And biochar allows us to have both of those
properties and, uh, it sequesters carbon and

I, I just can't say enough positive things.

We're seeing that, uh, soils amended with
the right proportion of biochar are so much

better than soils that have not been amended.

So I'm a big advocate for it.

So, uh, but if you can't, uh, have your, uh,
brush, uh, or woody material turned into biochar.

Chipping it is one option, and mulch can be
a great thing for landscapes.

It can, uh, help, uh, improve soil quality
and improve habitat quality and retain soil

moisture as well.

And, uh, sorry, that was one thing I, uh,
fail to mention about biochar, it really helps

soils retain moisture.

Not only does it promote drainage, but it
helps increase soil moisture, which in the

face of a changing climate and ecological
drought is a primary challenge.

So pruning and and chipping the the brush
material.

And then as we talked about earlier, it's
not often necessary to remove a dead or dying

tree or a failed tree from the landscape if
it doesn't have hazard potential.

And if it could serve habitat potential, it
can actually add a lot of value to a landscape.

In my yard, I had a, uh, three foot diameter
fail in 2016, uh, very close to the house

and, uh, it stands at about 18 feet tall,
but just sheared off because of heavy weight.

I've retained it as a habitat snag and I've
had pileated woodpecker visiting and there

are, uh, there's a myriad of moss and lichen
species and mushroom species growing upon

it, and it's, it's just a wonder to behold
as a backyard habitat enthusiast.

I, I can spend hours sitting on my patio,
drinking a beverage, just watching the snag,

uh, and I, I see new things every day, so
big advocate for that as well.

And if folks are interested in attracting
wildlife of various sorts, um, no better way

to do that than, as you folks alluded, getting
creative with the leftover materials, doing

piles for reptiles and amphibians of, of woody
debris, you, you do want to be mindful not

to leave a lot of ladder, uh, wildfire ladder
fuels around or to pose problems for the landscape,

but in general, if those piles aren't too
thick or have ground contact, the moisture

levels will remain high and they can do their
thing.

Thanks, Scott.

I'm always an advocate for creating wildlife
habitat, especially reptiles and amphibians.

My little side passion.

So thanks for pointing those things out.

I think you've both covered quite a bit of
really useful and interesting information.

So thank you so much for, um, joining us.

I guess I have one more question for both
of you and that's if there's anything else

that you feel like is important for people
listening to know about, you know, uh, how

trees respond to these different types of
storms and how that impacts, um, our landscape.

I'll defer to you, Glenn.

Well, I guess I should say with all that we
talked about, if folks are wondering, you

know, you can follow up with us and with some
of your other local resources, um, wherever

you live, uh, in Oregon and, uh, you know,
to learn more, explore with OSU Extension

and Department of Forestry and others, and
oftentimes you can get somebody to come out

even and take a look with you.

Uh, especially give us enough time.

So just, you know, pursue learning more as
you need to and get in touch with us.

I will just echo that our team really loves
to provide customer service and meet folks

and engage in collaboration and problem solving
and I guess, uh, last thing I'll say is, how

important, um, prevention is, um, we know
that we're likely to continue to suffer, uh,

extreme ice storms and weather events, and
the old adage, a stitch in time can save nine,

um, preventative maintenance, although it
is an expense, it can really, um, Pay off

in dividends.

So I would encourage folks to inspect your
trees and, uh, prune trees is needed or in

certain cases, remove trees is needed in urban
areas and just be proactive rather than reactive

wherever possible.

Um, it will really pay off.

Okay, great.

Well, again, thank you both so much for joining
me.

I just want to let our audience know not to
leave yet because I have a lightning round

coming up.

Um, but in between that, I just wanted to
thank you for joining me.

I know this is somewhat of a heavy topic and
there could be some people that were, um,

hoping to learn more because the storm was
quite, you know, an impact on their personal

property.

So thank you for sharing some of those resources,
some of those opportunities for people to

be able to see some benefit and know how to
prevent from future situations.

Um, just a reminder to our listeners that
if any questions came up during our topic

today that you didn't have answers, please
feel free to drop us a comment or send us

a message on our website.

That's inthewoodspodcast.com.

Um, and after this little ditty, we'll ask
our presenters or guests really, um, some

questions.

Okay, so, um, I'm going to ask you two our
lightning round questions.

We'll do, we'll alternate so that, um, one
can answer and then the other and I'll start

with Glenn.

So, Glenn, um, what's your favorite tree?

I have to say, uh, Coast Redwood, and I grew
up in the Redwoods in some parts of my youth,

and they're just great trees.

Uh, they're long lived, they grow to be giants,
they're adapted to survive fire, and they

even sprout back if they're, um, fallen or
burned, uh, so they live again.

So, Coast Redwood.

Hey, good choice.

Scott, how about you?

Well, um, uh, like Glenn, I'm partial to the
Sequoia Sempervirens, the Coast Redwood, but

I'm also very partial to our Oregon White
Oak.

Um, they play such an important role in the
landscape, not just for, uh, their role ecologically,

well, uh, because of their role ecologically,
but not just for non humans, but for humans

as well, the original inhabitants, um, uh,
Native Americans, it was, the older I get

and the more I learn about the, the importance
of acorns as a first food and the, the relationship

with Oregon oaks to fire, uh, it's just incredible.

Thank you.

Such a, um, such an important tree and one
that I've been learn learning a lot more about

recently as well.

Um, okay.

So, uh, Glenn, we'll, we'll hop back over
to you.

Uh, what, what is, what you would say the
most interesting thing that you bring with

you into the field, whether in a cruiser's
vest or in your field kit?

Well, these days, um, the high tech tools,
the laser distance finders and the hypsometers

that we use for measuring distances and tree
heights.

Those are really cool.

And I have the fortunately to have some now.

And so it's a whole lot easier than, you know,
having a tape measure and a clinometer in

the old fashioned way.

Yeah, agreed.

A lot less, a lot less walking up and down
hills, back and forth to trees.

Um, okay, Scott, uh, what about for you?

Do you have an interesting tool that you bring
with you when you're out checking out trees?

Yeah, um, I guess a binoc, a set of binoculars,
good binoculars is really important for being

able to really see closely what's going on
in the crown of the tree, uh, certain growth

forms or habitat features or critters, organisms.

And then as an avid tree climber, um, when
I'm rigging trees to ensure that I'm over

a safe branch without any defects or problems,
binoculars can be a lifesaver.

And then, uh, just for general bird watching
and such, uh, binoculars are definitely, if

I only had one thing I could bring, it would,
it would be the binoculars.

Yeah, it's life saving in multiple ways there.

It's a good point.

Um, yeah, very useful tool.

Okay, so our last question for you all is
what resource, do you have specific resources

that you would recommend to our listeners
if they're interested in diving deeper into

today's topic about, um, storm damage, uh,
forest health, you know, um, tree stability

or things of that nature?

Glenn, you can go first again.

Yeah, well, again, take advantage of your
local offices and our websites for OSU Extension

and the Department of Forestry both.

Actually, Scott probably would refer to this,
but I start with the Oregon Department of

Forestry urban forest website pertaining to
tree care after a storm or some of these other

kind of urban tree care issues in particular.

Of course, they have a lot about forestry
as well.

And then, you know, you can post these, you
know, on your podcast site, uh, for the web

links.

The, um, a paper actually that people want
to get into the weeds a bit with the forestry

and with thinning and controlling the crowding
in your forest.

You know, we have a publication on, you know,
competition and stand density in woodlands.

Uh, and in general, look at our OSU extension
forestry, natural resources, publications

on forest health and management.

Uh, so hope you'll post both of those websites,
um, for exploring further.

Yeah, absolutely.

We'll put links to all of your suggestions
on our episode page on the website.

Yep.

And then stay tuned for upcoming events in
your neighborhood because we do a lot of education

programs such as our tree school and, and,
you know, monthly or seasonal programs live

and in person.

Yeah.

Those are great.

And I'm excited for the one coming up.

Do you have any classes, um, at your next
tree school on this sort of topic?

Yeah, there's something can be some around,
you know, in forest settings, um, around,

you know, standing and stand density management
as well as, um, you know, wildlife habitat

and fire and fuels reduction and, you know,
some things related to that.

Maybe nothing specific about storms, but more
about how to grow a strong tree.

Ah, okay.

Well, very important as Scott was talking
about prevention.

Okay, Scott, um, you're, you're up what any
resources that you think would be helpful

for people who want to learn a little bit
for after today.

Yeah, so, uh, I too would, uh, refer folks
to our local extension resources and our Oregon

Department of Forestry website.

One of my favorites, we talked a fair amount
about, uh, arboreal habitat and how, um, important

dead and dying wood is, uh, for, uh, forest
ecology and how it supports the web of life.

One of my favorite publications is called
the Veteran Trees, uh, Veteran Trees, a guide

to good management, and it's available, uh,
make sure to post a link, uh, won't get into

the hyperlink now, but it's a, uh, a hundred
page document that is, uh, it has some amazing

illustrations and just a wonderful online
resource to get the wheels turning.

So I'll be sure to provide you with that link.

So, so folks, uh, can check out that, but
once again, it's called veteran trees, a guide

to good management.

Great.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much both of you.

Um, I really enjoyed our conversation today
and, um, really had the opportunity to learn

a lot.

I finally learned Scott, um, what the those
cables are used for and for trees.

So thank you for discussing that preventative
measure.

Um, and talking about how to prevent tree
failure, um, in that situation.

So I appreciate both of you for, for joining
me and teaching us all a lot about, um, forest

health, storm damage, and disturbance, and
looking forward to finding an excuse to be

able to talk to both of you again sometime.

So, thank you.

Thank you.

So, uh, that concludes another episode of
In the Woods.

Uh, don't forget to join us in a couple weeks
to explore another topic on Oregon's amazing

forests.

Until then, what's in your woods?

Thank you so much for listening.

Show notes with links mentioned on each episode
are available on our website @inthewoodspodcast.org.

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The In the Woods Podcast is produced by Lauren
Grand, Jacob Putney, Scott Leavengood, and

Stephen Fitzgerald, who are all members of
the Oregon State University Forestry and Natural

Resources Extension team.

Episodes are edited and produced by Kellan
Soriano.

Music for In the Woods was composed by Jeffrey
Hino, and graphic design was created by Christina

Friehauf.

We hope you enjoyed the episode and can't
wait to talk to you again next time.

Until then, what's in your woods?